Interview with Khaled Ahmad Zekriya, Ambassador of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan to Italy and Permanent Representative to the UN Agencies stationed in Rome.
What is your assessment of the current situation in Afghanistan?
My assessment of the current situation in Afghanistan is that if the Taliban continue to act as a demolition squad, Afghanistan eventually shall lose its historical, cultural and linguistic heritage as well as its democratic gains during the former Republic. In the end, Afghanistan will become a honeymoon site for harboring and training transnational terrorist and criminal groups; a breeding ground for the spread of Talibanization and its export around the world; a hub for the production and trafficking of narcotic and organized crime; and finally, a probable factional war supported by regional rivals, which will change the geography of Afghanistan’s natural and near neighbors leading to secession, partition and annexation by various ethnic groups residing in the countries of the region.
How would you describe the human rights situation in Afghanistan today, particularly regarding freedom of the press and women’s rights?
While the Taliban continue to slash, stone, kidnap, imprison, torture and kill innocent Afghans, the Taliban’s institutionalized exclusion of Afghan women from most aspects of public life and even confinement to their own homes is abhorrent. In this area, the Taliban regime is considered the most discriminatory in the world. The Taliban’s decrees and measures against the female section of the Afghan population amount to gender apartheid. In short, a radical reversal of the Taliban position on girls’ and women’s rights is highly unlikely.
As far as freedom of press is concerned, there is little left of the country. Since the Taliban regained control of Afghanistan, the group has issued 21 media decrees aimed at restricting the activities of the media and banning live broadcasts of political programs and criticism of its policies. The Taliban have regularly imprisoned journalists and media workers who, according to the Taliban, act against “national and Islamic interests in Afghanistan”. In addition, the media in Afghanistan is not allowed to report on the Taliban’s drug deals, corruption, immorality, lawlessness or violence in the country.
The Taliban have warned that if any of the new guidelines are violated by any media organization, the Taliban Ministry of Culture and Information will deal with the presenter, producer, editor and guests of the show accordingly. Recently, the Taliban have imposed additional restrictions on media organizations in Afghanistan by prohibiting live political broadcasts. The Taliban instructed media managers at a meeting on September 21 that topics for political broadcasts must first be approved by them. The Taliban have also issued new guidelines instructing media organizations to invite only guests approved by the group. They have provided a list of 68 experts they approve for political broadcasts. According to the new guidelines, Taliban officials must be informed in advance if a guest who is not on the Taliban-approved list is to appear on a program.
Since taking power in August 2021, the Taliban have banned women from showing their faces on air and broadcasting music. In some Afghan provinces, it is even forbidden to broadcast women’s voices on call-in shows. The Taliban’s latest directive on “vices and virtues” prohibits even showing living beings on TV, which results in TV stations being turned into radio stations to use for their Jihadist propaganda.
What are the main difficulties encountered by non-governmental organizations and human rights associations active in Afghanistan?
The Taliban authorities have carried out repressive orders and a crackdown on indigenous and non-indigenous non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and other civil society actors, including women’s movements and development and humanitarian organizations working for human rights. The Taliban have also raided the offices of NGOs, frozen their bank accounts, halted their programs and banned Afghan women employees from working with these organizations. The latter – banning women from continuing to work with local and foreign NGOs, especially excluding women from leadership positions, including as board members of NGOs, and forcing NGOs to replace the word “women” with “men” in project documents – had the effect, among other things, of severely limiting the operational and staffing capacity of these organizations, forcing many of them to cease operations and others to fight hard to continue operating. These imposed restrictions had serious economic and developmental consequences. Through this kind of repressive policy, involving surveillance, detention, arrest, torture, abduction and even death, civil society in Afghanistan has lost its ability to work and help, as well as to lobby and conduct research. As a result, the civil society space in Afghanistan has closed.
Those NGOs, especially foreign ones, that are afraid of reprisals by the Taliban tend not to engage with the current realities on the ground, and a few, unfortunately, even whitewash the Taliban’s discourse on human rights violations. The ban on the entry of UN Special Rapporteur Richard Bennet, who has been labeled a propagandist, reflects the Taliban’s contempt for the difficulties faced by the UN and NGOs in Afghanistan.
Diplomatic relations between Italy and Afghanistan have always been excellent, just think of the fact that Italy was a place of exile for two former Afghan kings, Amanullah Khan (deposed in 1929) and Mohammed Zahir Shah (deposed in 1973). How would you describe the current diplomatic relations between Afghanistan and Italy?
Since the fall of the Afghan Republic, the Italian government’s relation has remained more or less the same with the Embassy and Mission of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan in Rome, Italy. We here at the Embassy continue to fulfill our normal diplomatic and consular functions and are fully aware of the sensitivities of our host country. As for the diplomatically unrecognized Taliban administration in Kabul, the Italian government and other international actors have no choice but to continue working with the Taliban to support the Afghan people and protect their assets in the country. Our embassy and mission here in Rome have always encouraged the Italian government and UN agencies to continue their engagement with the Taliban administration in Kabul. However, we have also emphasized the importance of continuing this engagement on the terms of the international community and not the Taliban. The international community and the UN should reconsider their so-called ‘normalized form of engagement’ with the Taliban and start using the carrot and stick approach to prevent the Taliban from becoming even bolder and giving up their demands for further concessions from the international community
What are the most important areas of cooperation between the two countries, and how are they progressing?
On January 26, 2012, Italy signed a strategic agreement with Afghanistan aimed at supporting Afghanistan after the withdrawal of combat troops from the country in 2014. This agreement strengthened and focused the important areas of cooperation between the two countries.
It should be noted that between 2002 and 2021, Italian cooperation contributed to Afghanistan’s development with a total amount of 1.25 billion euros in the form of grants and aid loans. This amount was allocated to infrastructure and urban planning, healthcare, governance, justice, education, gender equality, agriculture, rural development, heritage conservation and the private sector. Initially, the focus was on Kabul and the province of Herat. Later, the province of Bamiyan and the rest of the country were added to the list.
After the fall of the Afghan Republic and the illegal takeover of power by the Taliban, the office of the Italian Agency for Development Cooperation (AICS), which is the operational platform of the Italian cooperation system for the implementation of activities related to the elaboration, development, financing, management and control of international cooperation initiatives, was evacuated and closed in Kabul. Subsequently, the portfolio for Afghanistan was handed over to the AICS office in Islamabad. Today, Italy together with other international donors, is pursuing a “humanitarian and basic needs-oriented” approach to meet the urgent needs of Afghan citizens for food, security and shelter and to provide basic services in areas such as health and education. Italy is also paying special attention to women and vulnerable groups in Afghanistan.
During the UN Conference on Afghanistan on September 13, 2021, Italy announced that it would provide 150 million euros for both Afghanistan and neighbouring countries facing the influx of Afghan refugees. The funds have been allocated to UN agencies (UNOCHA, UNHCR, IOM, WFP, UNHAS, OMS, UNICEF, UNFPA) and international organisations (ICRC, IFRC). Italy also relies on national and international NGOs to help the Afghan population. At the donor conference in March 2022, Italy once again announced additional aid of 50 million euros for Afghanistan.
Italy played a significant role in the NATO mission in Afghanistan. How would you describe the legacy of this presence and its effects on the country?
From 2002 to 2021, Italy contributed to the NATO-led Resolute Support Mission with an 800-strong contingent stationed in Kabul and Herat, paying a high price in terms of human lives and treasure. Therefore, the Afghan people are grateful for Italy’s support and especially for the 54 brave Italians who lost their precious lives in the fight against terrorism and for the protection of our common democratic values in Afghanistan. These sacrifices will remain immortalised in the contemporary history of Afghanistan.
Therefore, the legacy of the Italian presence in Afghanistan is a legacy of commitment, sacrifice, bravery and brotherhood and sisterhood in Afghanistan. The Italians are loved and admired by Afghans inside and outside Afghanistan. The Afghans hope that one day the Italians will return back to Afghanistan.
How is Afghanistan working with Italy and other European countries to address the issue of refugees and asylum seekers?
The current Taliban administration has paid little attention to the problem of refugees forcibly repatriated to Afghanistan from Pakistan, Iran and some EU member states, as well as those who have left the country legally or illegally. Furthermore, it is the Taliban’s misogynistic and draconian policies that have led to the internal displacement of Afghans and the massive wave of Afghans leaving their country and seeking asylum abroad. The Taliban may not admit it or say it publicly, but the exodus of Afghans opposed to their regime and Talibanization is their secret recipe to the continuation of their rule.
What are the main difficulties for those who want to return to Afghanistan? Are there reintegration and assistance programs for returnees?
First and foremost, Afghans who left Afghanistan under the Taliban will never return to the country for fear of retribution and further persecution by the Taliban government. Those who have been forced to return to Afghanistan by various countries not only have the aforementioned fears, but also the uncertainty that surrounds them due to unemployment, restrictions, insecurity and hunger in Afghanistan. Overall, there are no viable reintegration and assistance programs for Afghan returnees, as the Taliban group does not act as responsible holders of bureaucratic authority. Since monopolization of power and resources is the discourse of Taliban 1.0 and 2.0, they also do not care about those who do not belong to their group; this includes most of the Afghan population who have become alienated from the Taliban and their way of governance.
Afghanistan has a rich culture and history. How does the Embassy work to promote Afghan culture in Italy?
The Embassy and Mission of the Republic of Afghanistan here in Rome, both on the bilateral and multilateral fronts, beside conducting its routine diplomatic and consular affairs, has assumed a three prong diplomatic approach in addressing political, economic and social needs of the people of Afghanistan inside and outside the country. These three are: 1. Cultural and Public Diplomacy; 2. Human Rights Diplomacy; and 3. Ecclesiastical Diplomacy. Hence, just for this year the embassy has had over 15 gatherings such as conferences, roundtables and events held here at the embassy. Furthermore, I have done more than 20 interviews, issued more than 60 statements and traveled around and attended 33 functions hosted by Italian governmental and non-governmental organizations to talk about the current situation in Afghanistan. We have had 6 projects with various NGOs and other institutions helping Afghan girls and women in Afghanistan. Last but not least, we have had many engagements with Italian Think Tanks, universities and public schools to provide awareness about the current situation in Afghanistan and how to assist the Afghan population. As an example, the two most recent events in the last two weeks were: 1. the Third International and Diplomatic Studies Conference on Afghanistan organized by our embassy and University of Bologna, Forli Campus being held one day at the university and the next day at the embassy; and 2. exhibition held in the embassy and titled: “They’re Back: Traditional and Modern Designs – The Root and Making of the Afghan Rugs”. The same approach has been utilized with the UN organizations stationed in Rome.
As a testament to the continuation of our three prong diplomatic approach, our Embassy and Mission here in Rome intends that for the next year, we will have bigger plans such as being part of Venice Biennale, to convene a large musical concert bringing together Italian Opera singers and Western instrumentalists with Afghan Raga singers and instrumentalists, and to have a fashion show with a well known Italian designer and Afghan designer showcasing their clothing and how it can be amalgamated together.
How are Afghan citizens welcomed in Italy, and what are the main integration challenges for the Afghan community in the country?
Around 23,000 Afghans live here in Italy. About 2500 Afghans came to Italy after August 15, 2021. The Afghans are welcomed by the Italians with open arms and the greatest hospitality. Although the Afghans love the weather, the environment and the rich cultural heritage of Italy, the poor welfare system and the lack of jobs are the biggest challenge for integration. Since the beautiful and rich Italian language is not promoted as a tool of public and cultural diplomacy, it is difficult for Afghans to receive even free Italian language courses. Therefore, many Afghan migrants and even students tend to leave Italy for other countries in the region.
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The promotion of culture can be a bridge between peoples. Are there collaborations with Italian cultural institutions to preserve and promote the Afghan cultural heritage?
At the embassy level, there is a strong form of cooperation with Italian governmental and non-governmental cultural institutions and the Italian public to preserve and promote Afghan cultural heritage. However, as the Taliban are not diplomatically recognized and are a group that culturally cannot be reckoned with (They reject universal values and of the current world order; they are antagonistic toward western culture, science and enlightenment; and they call for the reversal of cultural historical revolution even against other Islamic countries to go back to the Islamic Caliphate era through political and violent means namely Jihad), the preservation and promotion of Afghan historical and cultural heritage through government-to-government, people-to-people and government-to-people contacts through their administration is impossible. After the formation of an inclusive and pluralistic government in Afghanistan, this type of cooperation could come to fruition.
IF you have represented Afghanistan in Italy since 2020, at that time Ashraf Ghani was president. The Taliban who returned to power, however, do not recognize you. Who is in charge of the Afghan Embassy in Rome today?
In view of the fact that I, as the Ambassador of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan in Rome, Italy, have presented my credentials to the President of the Italian Republic in March of 2021, I am diplomatically recognized as the legitimate representative of the Afghan state on the basis of the Vienna Convention of 1961. Therefore, I am heading this embassy and continue to do so to represent my country and nation both in Italy and to the UN agencies stationed in Rome as the permanent representative of Afghanistan. The Taliban are the ones who are not recognized diplomatically, because they lack the legitimacy of the government within the state. All they have is territorial legitimacy, which does not and cannot give them diplomatic recognition.
Unfortunately, some countries have ignored the Vienna Convention of 1961 by diplomatically recognizing the Taliban. Some other states have allowed Taliban diplomats to take up diplomatic posts within Afghan missions, which still operate under the banner of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan and still fly the national, historical and proud tricolor flag of Afghanistan. This shows that our international system is no longer principled and value-oriented. We are currently witnessing that the politics of states and their national interests take precedence over international conventions, laws and agreements.
China, in particular, became the first country to formally accept a Taliban-appointed ambassador. The United Nations, the European Union, and most other nations continued to deny official recognition, often citing the Taliban’s human rights abuses, particularly against women and girls, as a major obstacle. Do you think things could change in the future and that other countries could also recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government?
If the UN, other international and regional organizations, and responsible state and non-state actors do not address the real shortcomings of the current international order, I fear that the Taliban will eventually be diplomatically recognized by other states, despite their human rights violations and their propagation of Talibanization. Unfortunately, some states in Europe have even allowed the diplomatic and consular missions of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, whose heads have sworn allegiance to the Taliban Supreme Leader, to continue to operate. As these missions are taking orders from the Taliban, this could have legal, diplomatic and security implications for Europe as a whole in the near future.
Do you believe that one day Afghanistan will be free from the Taliban?
I am firmly convinced that any regime whose domestic and foreign policy is based on duplicity, monopolization, tyranny, human rights violations and terrorism will eventually collapse. This applies to a hegemon state or a small organization like the Taliban. The end of the Taliban regime is approaching. With or without the help of the international community, Afghanistan has never been and will never be conquered by invaders and internal aggressors.
How do you see the future for your country?
As Afghanistan has become a hub for terrorist networks, I fear that an attack or series of attacks on Europe or the US by one of the terrorist organizations based in Afghanistan and/or by the supporters of Talibanization residing in the countries of the region, in Europe and in the US is imminent.
Domestically, I am confident that if the Taliban continue their repressive policies and the West and the countries in the region continue to pursue this reductionist and transactional form of engagement with the Taliban, sooner or later the Taliban will face a popular uprising that could lead to their collapse or lead to more bloodshed for the people of Afghanistan.
However, I am cautiously optimistic that the new US administration will confront the Taliban by revisiting the Doha agreement by either bringing them back to the negotiating table to form an inclusive government and agreeing to respect international norms, laws and conventions or face dire consequences.
As the brave heart of our nation still beats strong, its resilience to endure such tribulations and evils as we have experienced in our history will also overcome the current tyrannical proxy regime of the Taliban.
Photo: The Embassy and Mission of the Republic of Afghanistan in Rome